1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,590 The floor is yours. 2 00:00:02,610 --> 00:00:10,320 Good. Can you hear me and see my slides? Yes, yes. Okay. Thank you. So yeah, I was 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:15,270 just I have some experience of writing. I'll say what that amounts to during the 4 00:00:15,270 --> 00:00:19,860 talk. But I really just going to talk about science writers or science 5 00:00:19,890 --> 00:00:23,490 scientists who writes and I guess if you get one thing from the talk, in the end, 6 00:00:23,490 --> 00:00:28,170 you'll be really clear about what I think the differences. So here's his top four, I 7 00:00:28,170 --> 00:00:31,530 see we have quite a lot of people connected. And it's kind of interesting 8 00:00:31,710 --> 00:00:36,180 among giving a communications talk, you know, LSE physics meeting. So I have to 9 00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:40,260 make some assumptions. It's obviously for you since you're listening, I hope you get 10 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:44,460 something from it. But who am I assuming you are? I'm assuming the idea sir, 11 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:48,000 essentially interested in particle physics, actually, particularly the Elysee 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,290 interested in science communication and interested in the writing aspects in 13 00:00:52,290 --> 00:00:56,490 particular science communication, but there will be some very different mixes in 14 00:00:56,490 --> 00:01:00,690 the audience. So there'll be some very experienced professionals. Some just 15 00:01:00,690 --> 00:01:04,770 starting or thinking of starting. And I mean by that, you know, there'll be some 16 00:01:04,830 --> 00:01:08,430 very experienced physicists and we're thinking of starting more communication 17 00:01:08,430 --> 00:01:13,170 activities, probably some very experienced communications professionals who are maybe 18 00:01:13,170 --> 00:01:16,890 not so experienced in physics or maybe a new to studying science communication 19 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:23,310 about particle physics. So that's who I think you are, who am I? This one, I'm 20 00:01:23,340 --> 00:01:30,840 more sure. I guess. I'm a physicist on the ATLAS experiment, the LSE. I'm also an 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,930 academic in the UK. You've already seen the UCL logo a few times and I'm another 22 00:01:33,930 --> 00:01:38,040 UCL person. We took over the city of education from the previous talk a couple 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:38,460 years ago. 24 00:01:39,660 --> 00:01:40,260 We merged with 25 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,890 the UN I'm also an author. So as an author, that's multiple roles. We I 26 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:51,810 am an author of scientific papers, both as part of Atlas and previous large 27 00:01:51,810 --> 00:01:57,120 collaborations, and also shorter author this papers. I'm an author of courses and 28 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:02,040 lectures in my teaching role at UCL. Both of undergraduate and postgraduate. I, 29 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:06,900 myself have not written any textbooks, or at least probably people in the audience 30 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:11,970 who haven't. It's an important aspect of writing for science communication. And I 31 00:02:11,970 --> 00:02:16,020 also write on the science, about science. For the layperson. I have a blog column 32 00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:20,160 articles and books. And it's this one that the main focus of the talk will be on, 33 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:23,910 although I say a little bit about the first two, what I am not as a journalist, 34 00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:28,380 I don't do journalism. And this is something even I've written in a British 35 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:33,360 newspaper, not as a journalist. Obviously, journalism is very important, but it's a 36 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,650 different thing. I will say a little bit about it, because I've been on kind of the 37 00:02:37,650 --> 00:02:40,650 receiving end of journalism. I've done many interviews with journalists and 38 00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:44,850 things over the time. So I'll say a little bit about all four of these, sorry about 39 00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:45,990 the helicopter in the background. 40 00:02:47,070 --> 00:02:48,810 But I will focus on the third one. 41 00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:54,150 So some I'm going to try and give you some personal experiences and opinions which 42 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:57,210 might be useful or interesting. I'm going to focus as I said, on writing for 43 00:02:57,210 --> 00:03:01,170 laypeople. I hope for some challenge in this course. from people with different 44 00:03:01,170 --> 00:03:05,730 experiences because I'm aware this is very much ad hominem This is about my personal 45 00:03:05,730 --> 00:03:09,240 perspective. And many people have different journeys through this kind of 46 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:14,850 world. So one slide on journal papers. When we're writing scientific papers, we 47 00:03:14,850 --> 00:03:20,940 give priority to important detail and avoidance of ambiguity. That said, we 48 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,390 still an ambiguity is a useful tool, sometimes in making people want to read 49 00:03:24,390 --> 00:03:28,140 what you write. So we don't want that in our scientific papers. However, we should 50 00:03:28,140 --> 00:03:33,210 still write them as if we want them to be read or readable. Not sure that's high 51 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:36,390 enough upon our agenda sometimes when we're writing these papers, but I think it 52 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:42,000 should be. And so in my view, actually a bit more clearly identified speculation 53 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,510 and enthusiasm in the discussion paths would sometimes be good. But it's very 54 00:03:45,510 --> 00:03:48,390 difficult when you have a large author list. And of course, we have to be very 55 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:52,260 careful not to overhype our own results. The main point and point of these papers 56 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:58,560 is to report facts. left some courses, kind of similar in some ways in that it's 57 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,690 about communicating often quite technical detail. But I think as teachers, we all 58 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,770 place a lot more emphasis on engaging the enthusiasm and the activity of the 59 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:13,200 audience. Because as we papers, you can only do a certain amount by putting facts 60 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,800 in front of people, you need them to engage with them and digest them and 61 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,210 explore them. We hope our scientific colleagues are all teed up to do that when 62 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:25,470 they're reading the paper. We are trying to encourage our students to do the same 63 00:04:25,470 --> 00:04:29,550 thing. Depending on the level, we have various levels of success. The 64 00:04:30,210 --> 00:04:34,470 mathematical methods is quite a tricky one to do that with sometimes but that's what 65 00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:39,510 that's our goal. Okay, so then the main core of the talk science for the 66 00:04:39,510 --> 00:04:44,010 layperson. And this is really about my personal experiences. I'm not trying to 67 00:04:44,070 --> 00:04:47,640 make any universal statement here, but I have I think there are some themes that 68 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:52,890 might be useful to people that might come out and just of interest maybe it all 69 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,230 started for me with life and physics.com WordPress blog that I wrote, and that 70 00:04:58,230 --> 00:05:02,940 blog, in fact, stimulates you by a series of videos called colliding particles, 71 00:05:02,940 --> 00:05:08,790 which you can still find on Vimeo there, which were funded by stfc, and directed 72 00:05:08,790 --> 00:05:13,230 and filmed a marketer, Mike Patterson, not scripted, they were completely just, he 73 00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:17,910 would point the camera at us and talk to us. And I featured my student at the time, 74 00:05:17,910 --> 00:05:23,640 Adam Davidson, who's now head of data science at the economist, Gavin salon, who 75 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,440 many of you will know and Matthew Rubin who was his student at the time. And it 76 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:34,830 started in the run up to the LSE turn on, thousand seven, eight, finished just 77 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,230 included the fake turn on in 2000. In fact, it finished the stuff that Higgs 78 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:44,610 discovery and it was aimed in the UK at the kind of how science works, the 79 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,390 curriculum. So it wasn't about trying to teach people particle physics. He was 80 00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:52,800 trying to teach people what scientific researches and how it works, which is was 81 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,120 very interesting, actually very good. But I started a blog down to try to explain 82 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,420 more what the science actually was because I got lots of particle physics. Questions 83 00:06:00,420 --> 00:06:05,850 on the back of those videos. And the videos didn't really explain the particle 84 00:06:05,850 --> 00:06:11,970 physics. So I was trying to do that in the blog. And it ended up also talking about 85 00:06:11,970 --> 00:06:15,120 how science works. And it also ended up banging on about politics occasionally 86 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,920 because unfortunately it's not ignorable. And I still write it occasionally. And the 87 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:25,020 best thing about that whole experience is that we I got lots of feedback from 88 00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:28,170 readers and plenty of time to try and what works with different audiences and what 89 00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:32,070 doesn't, and also to learn that you can't possibly please everyone all the time. 90 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:35,790 Picture down on the right there, that's that's me on an aeroplane. If you remember 91 00:06:35,790 --> 00:06:40,920 aeroplanes, we're trying to do some work. And that's the header of the blog page, 92 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:46,530 which is as it is now. And that's the kind of forward love that map picture is 93 00:06:46,530 --> 00:06:47,850 something that we'll come back to shortly. 94 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,270 So the blog, then, 95 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:57,180 led to the guardian. The Guardian is one of the UK's leading national newspapers 96 00:06:57,180 --> 00:07:02,190 with presence also the US Australia required Like, international readership, 97 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,460 The Guardian size team in 2010 ish with olive jar who's also now The Economist, 98 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:12,900 actually, who was keen on starting a blog network for the paper ideas sample, you 99 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:16,950 may have seen his book, The called massive, which was he was writing about 100 00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:21,090 the Higgs before we actually found it. And he's a big fan of particle physics. So 101 00:07:21,090 --> 00:07:25,050 they saw my WordPress blog initially bought some articles off me to post on the 102 00:07:25,050 --> 00:07:29,040 guardian. And then in the end, they offered to host it. This is really good 103 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:34,680 experience. Some worries about whether you're actually displacing science 104 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,150 journalists by doing this, but they actually paid me for it a reasonable rate. 105 00:07:39,150 --> 00:07:43,980 So we were not doing we're not undermining the, the living of journalists that way. 106 00:07:43,980 --> 00:07:47,640 And also, as I say, we were not actually doing journalists. So journalism, so there 107 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,030 was a really quite a distinct role. This was reporting from the inside, not from 108 00:07:51,030 --> 00:07:56,250 the outside. Journalists clearly have to retain some more distance from the subject 109 00:07:56,250 --> 00:08:00,720 than I do. When I'm writing a blog. For instance, those article had a fantastic 110 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:07,530 experience a whole new bunch of reader feedback and chances to try things out 111 00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:12,540 again and fail and fail better. Unfortunately, the new editor once on 112 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:16,410 Rusbridger left and the new editor eventually noticed this blog network, she 113 00:08:16,410 --> 00:08:20,070 closed the whole thing down as part of the vision, I mean, it shouldn't really 114 00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:24,180 complain because the garden is not at least not going bankrupt anymore. But it 115 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:27,000 was a bit of a shame. I think it was a missed opportunity. But I'm very grateful 116 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:33,810 for the seven years we've had doing that. And I carry on now In other media. So once 117 00:08:33,810 --> 00:08:38,100 you get on a journalist contact list, of course, you will come back to so many 118 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:43,980 stories to consult and discuss sometimes not related. And it's quite important to 119 00:08:44,010 --> 00:08:47,790 say no, this is not something I wish to talk about because either is stupid, or 120 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,450 there's 10 other people that are qualified here and I'll get I'll give you their 121 00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:56,370 names. I've written for the new scientists, nature, news and views on 122 00:08:56,370 --> 00:09:02,040 various others, but a lot of interviews and they're very different. The even if 123 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,380 the interview ends up being almost entirely things you said to the 124 00:09:04,380 --> 00:09:07,800 journalist, you have no control over what they're going to say at some level, they 125 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,270 will sometimes fact check but there's no guarantee. So it's a little more nerve 126 00:09:12,270 --> 00:09:16,980 wracking in some ways. And not just print media but this is also talking about TV 127 00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:22,470 radio podcasts. We did horizon program on the Higgs and chat shows, which not that 128 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:27,780 many science chat shows, but there is one quite well known in the UK, which is the 129 00:09:27,780 --> 00:09:33,150 infinite monkey cage and that's Robin Hanson, Brian Cox to do that. But transfer 130 00:09:33,150 --> 00:09:38,760 Linda Burton run this thing called cosmic shambles with Robin, with a lot of overlap 131 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,560 with what the people including Brian have people who go on Infinite monkey cage, and 132 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:44,760 when the Guardian shut their 133 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:45,660 network down. 134 00:09:46,890 --> 00:09:51,540 These guys basically took over at least the blog so they were going concerns that 135 00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:56,190 they wanted including mine. There's a nice website mixes science, music and comedy 136 00:09:56,190 --> 00:10:00,690 very active during the lockdown. They do podcasts and little video. It notes and 137 00:10:00,690 --> 00:10:05,550 things as well. And as I say, they're now hosting several of the old Guardian books, 138 00:10:05,550 --> 00:10:09,660 including mine. I don't actually use that really as a blog, though I tend to know 139 00:10:09,660 --> 00:10:12,990 write articles for them that are more fully formed and use the blog is more of a 140 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:19,170 stream of consciousness stuff. And then finally books. I'll say a little bit about 141 00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:23,370 how I got into but what I will say now, the key thing if you want to write a book 142 00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:27,060 that people will actually read is, first of all, get an agent and then get an 143 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:32,250 editor. And I got an agent. This is at least my experience, I got an agent 144 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:37,740 because of the blog and the guardian. Because she saw as Diane banks have 145 00:10:37,740 --> 00:10:41,340 nothing talents and facts, and she saw that I could write and saw that people 146 00:10:41,340 --> 00:10:44,670 wanted to read what I could write. So I think the main message here is if you want 147 00:10:44,670 --> 00:10:50,010 to write things, then start writing and put them out there for people to read and 148 00:10:50,010 --> 00:10:54,000 learn the lessons and then you have a portfolio to show an agent and then the 149 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:59,370 agent. If they're good. We'll get you the editor, which is what Diane did for me. So 150 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,610 the first book I wrote with smashing physics, which is called most once a 151 00:11:02,610 --> 00:11:08,130 particle in the United States and Canada is a member personal Academy, the Higgs 152 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,420 discovery. He drew heavily on the blog, although it was completely rewritten the 153 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:18,090 blog was a fantastic backbone for this. It was published by Hachette in the UK and 154 00:11:18,090 --> 00:11:23,340 experiments a little publishing house in the US and translated into a few 155 00:11:23,340 --> 00:11:28,290 languages. And as I said, the experience of writing this The concept was quite well 156 00:11:28,290 --> 00:11:32,940 defined it was the editor was quite hands off, but obviously helpful because he 157 00:11:32,940 --> 00:11:36,930 would, he helped me pull the background flesh out the backbone, if you like and 158 00:11:36,930 --> 00:11:41,040 turn it into stuff people could understand give the book a more continuous narrative 159 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,510 on of the narrative was really provided by you know, the the point of the book is 160 00:11:45,510 --> 00:11:48,780 what was it like to be involved in discovering the Higgs boson and that was 161 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:53,610 that's kind of writes itself in terms of the plot development there. But the editor 162 00:11:53,610 --> 00:11:57,660 was fantastic and in basically tried to make sure that I didn't disappear into 163 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:02,040 physics and I was very keen not to be fascinated about this, I wanted to be 164 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:07,080 real, I wanted to give the real physics and the real experience. And as we know, 165 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:13,710 some of that can be difficult and elitist, and, and also boring sometimes, in fact, 166 00:12:13,890 --> 00:12:18,900 having an editor, try to stop you doing all those things is very useful. And then 167 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:22,290 the second book, The only other one I've read so far was a map of the invisible, 168 00:12:22,290 --> 00:12:29,040 which is called lots of land in the US and Canada and Italy and France. And this is a 169 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,520 more playful journey through particle physics is a lot less personal. It's not 170 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,500 really, I'm not really in this book, I'm all over the place in setting physics. And 171 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:40,890 it uses exploration of the metaphor is published by those people around the 172 00:12:40,890 --> 00:12:45,750 world. And the concept in this case was a different publisher in the UK, in fact, 173 00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:51,210 and the concept was developed much more in tandem with the editor and eventually with 174 00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:55,440 the illustrator as well. And that was a very different experience and equally 175 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,510 interesting and rewarding, but very, very different. The industry This is where 176 00:13:00,510 --> 00:13:05,340 these maps come from. This is drawn by Chris wormald, who's the illustrator that 177 00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:09,900 does the book illustrations for Philip Pullman, His Dark Materials books, which I 178 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:14,280 was very honored to get him to draw physics. For me. This was a lot of fun 179 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,180 drawing this kind of stuff. And it seems to have seems to work well in terms of 180 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:21,450 making people less frightened of reading about particle physics because they see 181 00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:27,960 the cartoons, this kind of Tolkien esque map. So they're so I'm aware that a lot of 182 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,470 that is very individual and just about where I happen to do this, but maybe, 183 00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:36,450 maybe in different we do collect enough anecdotes, we do get some kind of data. 184 00:13:36,450 --> 00:13:40,260 I'm not sure about that. But I think there are some thoughts and conclusions 185 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:44,880 absolutely worth drawing from it. Writing from the public for the public is hard 186 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,840 work, but it's enjoyable, at least. I don't think you should probably do it if 187 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,750 you don't enjoy it, and I do very much. I find it really rewarding and interesting 188 00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:59,430 to see professional editors, journalists, agents, publicists the work may come as a 189 00:13:59,430 --> 00:14:04,170 shock to us particle physicists can do everything. We are very smart, but we 190 00:14:04,170 --> 00:14:08,550 don't know anything. It's seriously been a real privilege working with some of the 191 00:14:08,550 --> 00:14:09,960 people involved in these fields. 192 00:14:12,509 --> 00:14:17,399 More Personally, I find the writing code and papers competes directly with writing 193 00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:21,389 other stuff. So those books and most of the blog were written while I was doing 194 00:14:21,389 --> 00:14:25,139 more management roles, I was head of department at UCL. And that was before 195 00:14:25,139 --> 00:14:29,309 that it was head of a physics group on Atlas. And I didn't have my own live 196 00:14:29,309 --> 00:14:32,789 analysis, then I wasn't actually writing science paper. Because myself I was more 197 00:14:32,789 --> 00:14:38,399 overseeing, facilitating other people doing that. Now, after a year sabbatical, 198 00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:42,659 stepping down from those and writing a lot more science and a lot more code. And I'm 199 00:14:42,659 --> 00:14:46,529 finding it much harder to actually write other things. I hope that changes at some 200 00:14:46,529 --> 00:14:51,299 point, I hope I can manage to do both. But I find I'm using the same creativity when 201 00:14:51,299 --> 00:14:55,529 I spend the day right doing writing code and doing physics. I'm too tired to write 202 00:14:55,559 --> 00:14:59,399 a blog. Whereas when I spent a day in management meetings, I was kind of eager 203 00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:03,899 to write the blog. It's an interesting class I didn't really expect that I must 204 00:15:03,899 --> 00:15:09,479 say. And finally, I haven't really talked about science writers and journalists in 205 00:15:09,479 --> 00:15:14,369 general, I think I have enormous respect for the writers who research new areas, 206 00:15:14,369 --> 00:15:19,949 and then write about them. And people like Philip ball, and Jim Baggett and various 207 00:15:19,949 --> 00:15:24,929 other people in our area who do this, I really only write about my own research. 208 00:15:24,929 --> 00:15:27,839 So I've done most of the hard work already, because that's my job as a 209 00:15:27,839 --> 00:15:32,879 particle physicist. And then all I have to do is put it down on paper. So I think 210 00:15:32,879 --> 00:15:36,359 this is the thing about scientists who write and science writers, I am a 211 00:15:36,359 --> 00:15:41,639 scientist who can write hopefully reasonably well, about my own stuff. But 212 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:44,609 that's very different from writing about someone else's stuff, which means you also 213 00:15:44,609 --> 00:15:48,929 have to understand it. You have to go out there and research the topic before you 214 00:15:48,929 --> 00:15:52,859 write the data. And research is obviously made in particle physics is obviously my 215 00:15:52,859 --> 00:15:58,559 day job. So it's done already. Okay, I hope that was useful and interesting to 216 00:15:58,559 --> 00:15:59,999 sort of you, I'm happy to talk about 217 00:16:03,179 --> 00:16:10,829 Thank you very much. Do we have a couple of questions about writing about science, 218 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:12,479 science writing? 219 00:16:24,570 --> 00:16:29,370 See, there is one. Okay. So Matthew. 220 00:16:35,940 --> 00:16:40,800 I was just interested in how, at this point, there have been lots of books 221 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:46,140 written about astrophysics in our field. And it seems that, you know, ground has 222 00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:53,250 been covered. So, whoo, how do you find something new to write about, or how do 223 00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:57,780 you find something, a way to put things across that hasn't been done before? 224 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:02,850 Yeah, I wish I wish knew how to do that reliably because there's a reason I've 225 00:17:02,850 --> 00:17:06,990 ever heard, because I can't think of a new angle. You're absolutely right. A lot of 226 00:17:06,990 --> 00:17:11,520 things have been done. I mean, the first book, that was a no brainer, because well, 227 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,220 first of all, the Higgs discovery was new, and no one had written about it that 228 00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:19,110 anyway, lots of people were, of course, but no one had. So I had like the unit, it 229 00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:24,720 was a personal account. And that was good. And that was clear. The second one was how 230 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,950 to work. And that's why, as I said, the concept was kicked around more with the 231 00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:33,450 editor. I think in that case, I was a little fed up of the fact that the idea 232 00:17:33,450 --> 00:17:39,300 that we're, we're taking off boxes in the theoretical world, you know, that we tick 233 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:43,890 a box with the Higgs and things and I wanted to really use a metaphor for 234 00:17:43,890 --> 00:17:47,790 exploration, which is actually a metaphor I use in my own work and I use in 235 00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:53,490 seminars, and I felt that that was under not not fully not well enough understood. 236 00:17:53,490 --> 00:17:58,500 We, a lot of popular science books talk about the fundamental. You're going to 237 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,530 prove string theory, you're going to prove that The existence of this kind of stuff. 238 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,810 And I wanted to make the point that actually we're exploring that. So that was 239 00:18:06,810 --> 00:18:10,020 the underlying idea. And the maps was just a joy when we came up with that idea that 240 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:13,500 was actually in discussion with the editor, that we came up with that idea, 241 00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:18,990 and then he found the illustrator. So those two things work that way. I haven't 242 00:18:18,990 --> 00:18:21,810 most of a preferred way of working. So if you've got a good idea, go for it. 243 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:31,770 All right, then, maybe in the interest of time, if there's any other questions 244 00:18:31,770 --> 00:18:38,550 coming up for john, then we can maybe take them after everyone gave their talk. 245 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:48,240 Thanks again, john. Okay, and then we can come to alter. Another aspect of doing 246 00:18:48,270 --> 00:18:53,040 outreach we thought is networks national networks and